‘In my conversations with the US officials, as well as otherwise, I advocate sanctioning Priština for violations of human rights and the obligations towards the Serbs in Kosovo’
“Changing Serbia’s image is a process. We should never underestimate how low our starting point is. Sadly. Three decades of unjustly negative news about Serbia have left a deep mark. I get up every day with zeal and enthusiasm, keen to change one more person’s view in the US. I provide information about the progress we make to the people who don’t follow the current affairs in Serbia but are educated, civilized, and ready to listen to information coming from new and right sort of sources. It’s rewarding when you make some people aware of what Serbia has achieved in the past ten or so years and what it is focusing on – development, success, and true values, which are fully equivalent and compatible with the European and American ones.”
This is how Marko Đurić, the Serbian Ambassador to the United States of America, describes our country’s position and the prejudices held by many people, which are very difficult to eradicate, no matter how long ago the events in the 1990s took place, which have tarnished the image of our country.
In his interview with Kurir, Đurić reveals that a strategic partnership is lying ahead of Serbia and the US, which opens up the prospects of visa liberalization between the two countries. The Ambassador also talks about his Jewish origins, saying that he has always felt as an Orthodox Christian Serb, but that he cherishes his closeness to Israel and Judaism.
On Friday you had talks with State Department’s Special Advisor Derek Chollet. You wrote briefly on Twitter that the meeting had gone very well. I saw that he wrote you had had a very constructive talk. What more could you say about this?
“I cannot reveal much more, but what I can say is that the prevalent tone of the bilateral communication that we have in the US is very positive. The very fact that as Serbia’s representative I have that kind of treatment speaks to that. Derek Chollet is one of the four highest-ranking US foreign policy and State Department officials, and he is one of the four officials directly appointed by the US President. That means that there is considerable interest on the part of the US to maintain regular and very close contact. In the conversation we had, he expressed a high opinion of President Vučić’s contribution to the stabilization of the relations between Belgrade and Priština and acknowledged the necessity of forming the CSM. That was one of the topics that we covered. Of course, we discussed bilateral cooperation questions. Let me reveal another detail. We talked about the possible times to start a strategic dialogue between Serbia and the US. When that takes place, it will be an important step forward in our relations and will represent a new phase in our institutional collaboration.”
What would that include specifically?
“A mechanism will be created for introducing regular cooperation and connections between our various institutions, with the aim of prospective visa liberalization with the US and reaching a double taxation agreement, which will open the door to the US businesspersons in Serbia and Serbia businesspersons in the US, as well as improve our technological cooperation.”
My response to that echoes the response of our readership – when you hear “visa liberalization with the US”, it attracts a lot of attention. When could that be expected, roughly? Farther down the line, i.e. in five or ten years, or sooner?
“I cannot talk about times and deadlines, but the fact that talks about this topic have started would be a very positive signal. Not only for the citizens but also for the business community. I am convinced that our police force and border police can very quickly meet the standards necessary for this sort of arrangement.”
You just mentioned that the representatives of the US Administration strongly advocate the implementation of the Brussels Agreement and the formation of the CSM. Indeed, we have heard that said very openly, clearly, and in specific terms. However, Priština is still not implementing this. Have you seen other mechanisms at play on the part of the US, other than the rhetorical one, in their treatment of Albin Kurti?
“In my conversations with the US officials, as well as otherwise, I advocate sanctioning Priština for violations of human rights and the obligations towards the Serbs in Kosovo. Destabilizing behaviour, which is potentially dangerous, ought to be sanctioned, and the source of this behaviour is Albin Kurti, despite the fact that we would like to build a different relationship with the Kosovo Albanians.”
When you say that you advocate sanctioning Albin Kurti, how exactly are you doing that?
“The great powers that supported Kosovo’s independence some 20 years ago, as well as its formal secession about 15 years ago, keep supporting it using different instruments. Economically, politically, and in other ways. When you turn off that tap, or point out in a credible way that the carte blanche sort of support for the actions of these institutions will be withdrawn, that means sanctioning. The US has a significant potential to help normalize the relations. We were able to see that in December and January, when Kurti played around with escalating tensions. The US Government had a constructive contribution to easing the tensions on the ground.”
There have been statements to the effect that the US thought that a conflict was barely avoided in January and that it could easily have turned into war. Has this information reached you as well, and is the security danger averted now?
“I was with President Vučić and our Government at the time. I had purposefully arrived from Washington. I could testify to the fact that, owing to the cool-headedness of the Belgrade leaders and a long-term, carefully conceived policy, we didn’t come into conflict which Albin Kurti wanted to provoke. Sun Tzu, the Chinese philosopher, said many thousands of years ago that the one attacking at a given time always knows why they are attacking at that particular time, and that you should never allow the other side to pick the time of the conflict that suits it and that it wants. I think that some of this Sun Tzu’s philosophy is reflected in the actions of President Vučić, who avoided Serbia getting into the conflict that Kurti wanted.”
Yes, that is the famous strategy from The Art of War. I would like to know if this conflict has definitely been averted. Is the danger behind us? You know yourself that spring has turned out to be the riskiest time for the southern Serbian province, and you have just talked about the importance of time. Spring is ahead of us, so can we remain calm?
“I almost don’t wish to bring up Kurti because sometimes I feel that he wants and craves the attention of the media. He seems to want to resolve some personal frustrations of his in a way that takes us further away from normalizing relations and reconciliation. He insists on his red lines that are in effect pulling the two sides apart. Insofar as this approach and mentality are prevalent in Priština, there is greater risk for all of us. I sincerely hope and want to believe that the pressure that the international community exerts will be stronger, as we have seen that the aggression against the Serbs in Kosovo is still going on, and that the authorities in Priština want all Serbs out. We do not want to throw anyone out of any part of the territory – we want the friendliest relations possible, we want peace, and we want to look to the future.”
But is that possible?
“The frustrations from the past should be left in the past century. We need to think about our children’s and descendants’ generations. That is Belgrade’s main message. The situation in Europe is dangerous enough without the additional actions of arsonists who would like to repeat in the Balkans what is sadly happening in the east of Europe and other parts of the world.”
Special Envoy Gabriel Escobar said that the CSM would be formed with or without Albin Kurti. Let us recall 2019, when Albin Kurti was relieved of his duties after refusing to abolish the taxes on Serbian goods, and Avdullah Hoti replaced him. At the time, the US showed its interest and influence, with the greatest involvement on the part of Richard Grenell. Can a similar scenario occur again? Is there mention in the US of an alternative to Albin Kurti? Some Kosovo opposition leaders who would think in a more constructive way have been floated.
“The political thriller in Priština goes on, including the fact that the opposition parties do not want to take this hot potato – the relations with Belgrade – from Albin Kurti. They wish and hope that he will solve that problem for them. Don’t forget that in the past ten years, all of them could have secured the collective rights for the Serbs, but none of them did. Although it wasn’t politically popular for us, we were saying to people that we needed to negotiate, that we needed to look for compromise solutions, and that we had to build peace in the future. Who wants to hear that after so much injustice, humiliation, and violence that we have suffered? But that is responsible towards the future generations. I strongly believe that we should create a new kind of relations in the Balkans. And that we have to believe that President Vučić has made significant headway through his Open Balkans initiative and by always seeking opportunities to once and for all end the problems in the region. But equally, we do not want either side humiliated. We don’t want the Albanian side to be humiliated, or for us to be humiliated – what we want is a fair compromise.”
Elections will be held in the four municipalities in the north of Kosovo and Metohija, and the Serb List will not be participating. Is that a smart move, even though it is clear that it is a forced one and the only one left? How will this absence affect our people there?
“Not taking part in these so-called, fake elections is the only option that is left. In a situation where the Serbs are excluded and trampled on, participating in the elections would be pointless. Let me remind you that the Serbs have so far cast their votes in local elections three times in the hope that by doing so they would get collective rights, the CSM as an instrument of sorts, and that they would receive guarantees that no one would interfere in the healthcare system, education, and security at the local level. The only mechanism left for Serbia is to boycott the elections. It is the highest democratic tool. Let us not pretend that there is a functional democracy in Priština. Priština is run by extremists who want to remove the Serbian population from Kosovo using violent methods and reach a sort of mini-Final Solution, in a manner of speaking. I think it is a disgrace that this is happening in the 21st century.”
Nonetheless, will this boycott affect our people when other people, who are not members of the Serb List, become leaders of the four municipalities?
“The idea that Kurti, or Kurti’s man and Kurti’s people, would become mayors in places where they have one percent of votes or less shows how entirely pointless it is.”
But that will happen.
“Yes. That will happen. And that will reveal to the entire world the absence of democracy, dialogue, and an ordered society. It means putting a stop to humiliating the Serbian people. So, if you want to humiliate the Serbian people, you won’t have them sitting at the table voluntarily. You can try to use force to do whatever you want however you want to do it, but not for as long as you want. We are sending a clear message by doing this.”
Of 140 years of diplomatic relations between the US and Serbia, the days ahead are the best in terms of the quality of the relations. The US is interested in the entire region, and the Western Balkans are under the US’s watchful eye. There are views out there that the US would create a bloc in Europe which would include Ukraine and the Baltic states. Where do you see Serbia in all this?
“Serbia intends to continue to intensively develop its relations with the US. The main pillars of our policy are the economic exchange that we have, which is increasing significantly in the field of high technologies. Politically, we are building up our trust virtually daily. I would also like to point out the security cooperation that we are developing through the collaboration of the Serbian Armed Forces and the Ohio Army National Guard, as well as through military exercises such as The Platinum Wolf, which will be held later this year. The conditions are arising for a whole new chapter in the relations between Serbia and the US. As for the form that this will have, as the Ambassador, I am focusing on everything that will improve the relations.”
You speak of a new chapter and often say that a new paradigm of Serbia has taken shape in the US. Our image in the US was very bad during the 1990s. How do Americans, the people as well as the officials, see Serbia now, in 2023? Have you managed to contribute to that change in the course of the two and a half years of your service in Washington?
“Changing Serbia’s image is a process. We should never underestimate how low our starting point is, sadly. Three decades of negative news about Serbia have left a deep mark. I get up every day with zeal and enthusiasm, keen to change one more person’s view. I provide information to the people who don’t follow the current affairs in Serbia or the progress we are making but are educated, civilized, and ready to listen to information coming from new and right sort of sources. It’s rewarding when you make people who may not have heard of Serbia since the 1990s aware of what it has achieved in the past ten or so years and what it is focusing on.”
What do you say to them?
“I share with them what Serbia is focusing on now – improving our institutions, its citizens’ wish for the country to develop and build the standard and the values which are fully equivalent and compatible with the European and American ones. Our results speak better than any arguments. Instead of emotional and irrational arguments, I give them specific facts and figures. Serbia has attracted 65 percent of investments in south-eastern Europe in the past few years. At a time of the coronavirus and the war in Ukraine, it has managed to keep its sovereign debt at 51 percent of its GDP, which much bigger European countries have failed to do. Few people in Serbia know that the US is our most important foreign trade partner in terms of service exchange. It all paints the picture of the sophisticated nature of our exchange with the US. We don’t only exchange technological programmes, but also intellectual property. We learn from each other. That indicates that together we can achieve much more in the future. I like citing the NBA league as the best example of our cooperation. It is a metaphor for what we can do together – an American organization and the incredible Serbian talent exemplified in Marjanović, Jokić, and many others who deserve to be mentioned.”
You have given two lectures at Harvard. Who was in the audience and how did they respond to you pointing out what is amazing about Serbia? Did they listen with prejudice or with open minds?
“At Harvard I had very good interactions with the directors of several science institutes and lecturers who study our region. The lecture was attended by graduate and undergraduate students. It was a huge honour for me to represent Serbia and answer their various questions. I have to say that I went to Harvard because that is where a considerable number of brilliant young people from Serbia study, who have been networking well and earned the trust of their lecturers by their knowledge, effort, and attitude towards their studies. They used that to lobby for the representative of their country to come and say a few words about Serbia. This is one of the amazing examples of what we can do if a million people of Serbian origin come together and act in unison.”
You have mentioned the power of lobbying. Is the Serbian lobby in the US, which is getting stronger, able to face up to the Albanian lobby, which is already traditionally very strong in the US?
“Not yet, but this is a process that we have started very vigorously. We are leaving nothing to chance. We have approached the strengthening of our influence in all domains in a structured fashion. By strengthening our diaspora, contacts in the US Congress and Senate, presence in think-tank organizations, and economic cooperation. I especially want to point out that next month we will release the footage of the Serbian-American business council, headquartered in Washington, which is a result of the partnership between the Serbian Embassy and the US Central European Chamber of Commerce, which gathers together the companies with full US ownership.”
Is it known how much money the Kosovo Albanians set aside for lobbying and support of their independence? There has been talk of millions of US dollars.
“I have no doubt that we are talking about very large sums of money. I don’t have precise information. I noticed that last month a very influential senator paid a public visit to the home of the head of the Albanian lobby in New Jersey, and that he criticised the US officials from the Democratic Party there, although he himself is a Democrat, over their support for the CSM and a favourable view of Serbia. Let us not think for a moment that they are not working hard lobbying.”
How should you respond to that? Are you working on establishing cooperation with the new members of the US Congress, elected in the mid-terms? Do you see an opportunity for support there?
“One of the priorities in my work is establishing cooperation with the new senators and members of the Congress. In recent months I have met a range of people from that sphere, although I do not publicise all my meetings.”
Why is that? Social media are very relevant both to politicians and diplomats.
“Partly because I don’t have the time, and partly because it is my assessment that I should not make it known who from the Congress I have met with.”
Are they important people?
“Yes.”
Can they support Serbia in defending its vital national interests?
“Every conversation with such people is a two-way street. I learn from them every day. They are politicians. Some things are political techniques and tricks, and some are about building personal relationships. In the work that I do, 90 percent of success lies in personal contacts. I give it my best to build a personal relationship with the people who can influence the framing of the US policies, now or in the future.”
Are you successful in doing that?
“A good deal. I have managed to bring some of these important people to Serbia, and with others I have forged friendships that are not related to our political engagement.”
Do you build such relationships with the representatives of both the Republicans and the Democrats? It seems demanding balancing this, right?
“I have friends among both the Democrats and the Republicans. They are on different sides, and sometimes balancing is a bit of a challenge – I have a great male friend from the Democratic Party and a great female friend from the Republican Party, who criticise each other on Twitter. This is why, for example, I cannot bring them here together. It shows that they too are only flesh and blood and that they sometimes resemble Serbs.”
Is it a prejudice that some people in Serbia think that we would get greater support from a Republican president? Everyone sees Richard Grenell as someone who supported the Serbian interests the most. Can someone like that come along again?
“He is undoubtedly Serbia’s friend. He was while he had the official post, and has remained so today. Everyone in Serbia appreciates that very much. We don’t forget out friends.”
Has the paradigm of Serbia changed in the US? We have been called Russia’s, even China’s, puppets. When you talk to high-ranking officials, do they see us in the right light, do they see that we are not on the other side of the geopolitical divide, the one that is against the US?
“All those who follow the Balkans carefully know very well how important the US partnership with Serbia is and how much it has improved, and they think it is very valuable. There is some negative inertia because of the reporting from the 1990s, but we try every day to make new friendships with people who perhaps used to be less sympathetic.”
Congressman Eric Swalwell, one of the leading younger generation Democrats and the representative for California, is coming to Serbia. How does he see our country?
“He approaches Serbia in a friendly way, without prejudice. We have built a great friendship in the past two and a half years, and he has decided to spend some of his precious time here, where he will be meeting with the leading officials, visiting some of the industrial facilities, and familiarizing himself with the people and the beauty of Serbia. I would like him to have great memories of Serbia and to gladly visit again – we need as many of such people as possible. We have also been hosts to a Republican senator and continue to increase the Serbian caucus in the Congress and change the image of our country which took root in the 1990s. Now we are laying a healthy foundation for the future. Furthermore, all this will not have an effect today or tomorrow – this is a careful process which will bear fruit for the future generations.”
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has filed a Statement of Candidacy for President as a Democrat. Does he stand a chance against Joseph Biden, and who could be a candidate from the Republican ranks – Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis?
“Our policy is strict non-interference in the internal political matters of the United States of America. I am convinced that the American people will make the right choice and establish best which politician will defend their values. I have an opinion, and maybe I will make it known some day in my memoirs, but now I will keep it to myself.”
Secret Pentagon documents regarding the wiretapping of the Russian military, Israel, South Korea, and the allies in the war in Ukraine, even Zelenskyy, were recently leaked. Is spying omnipresent on both sides, and is this only what has been uncovered?
“Sometimes I think that there are no secrets in today’s world. At any rate, we spy on each other via social media and the modern communication systems, making it very easy for the big intelligence services to do their work. What they have now is data that is so easily accessible that what remains for them to do is filter it and make the end product. I have no doubt that everyone monitors, wiretaps, and spies on each other.”
Has the leak of this data in any way shaken the US?
“I don’t wish to evaluate such speculation.”
Let us not disregard the internal political issues. Does Serbia need a snap parliamentary election that has been announced?
“I now follow the internal matters from a physical and, up to a point, psychological distance. I notice a great transformation in all domains every two months, when I come to Serbia. I am glad to notice that a great number of our citizens appreciates that through the support for President Vučić. As for the time for having an election, I get the impression that certain political representatives aren’t sure what it is that they want. One day they claim they want an election and criticise the government for not calling it, and the next day they criticise the government for hinting at calling an election.”
Your name is floated as a potential minister of internal affairs. There was mention of that during the previous government, as there is regarding a possible future one.
“As regards my further ambitions, I can say I have them. I perform my duties in Washington as responsibly and professionally as possible. I am primarily focused on that job, and less on daily politics in Serbia, but the Serbian Progressive Party, where I am Vice-President, has doubtless made a key contribution to the recovery and development of Serbia in the last eight years, and it is beyond doubt that President Vučić has changed the paradigm of Serbian politics, economy, and general development of the country. I give him my full support in this respect.”
You have been away from the daily politics in Serbia, as you have said. Do you miss it?
“What I miss to an extent is fighting in my own country for the goals and values that I believe in. For the changes and greater progress that I would like to see in the coming period. Personally, I cannot say that I enjoyed all the prize-fighting duels of daily politics that I took part in. That is, however, unavoidable if you want to win the fight for what you believe in.”
‘Family gives me warmth’
‘They too promote Serbia’s reputation in Washington’
You have been serving as the Ambassador to the US for two and a half years. How did the adjustment go – for yourself and your family and three children?
“It’s a balancing act of sorts that you must do in order to adapt. Not just because of cultural differences, but also because the nature of the work is different. In Serbia, I managed a great system, had a considerable number of associates, and was in a political position where I didn’t have to chase many people. The situation in Washington is the exact opposite. I am one of 192 ambassadors with credentials presented in the US capital, and I come from a fairly small country. That practically means that few people need me, but I need everyone. Also, I have a small team of carefully selected associates, and together with them I try to improve the position of our country and change and refresh Serbia’s image.”
What about your family?
“They have given me the warmth of home, but they have also made their contributions to presenting a good image of Serbia, in their own way. Because the role of the wife and family is quite important in the US society and the US political elites. They actively participate, each in their own way. I’m grateful to them for not hesitating to join me.”
Do you speak Serbian or English at home?
“My wife and I speak Serbian with each other, of course. However, I’ve noticed recently that my children also speak English with each other when they play. They do spend most of their time at school and use it there, after all. Naturally, when we come into the room, they switch to Serbian.”
Do you find it challenging to put Orthodox Christianity before Judaism?
“My grandmother was Jewish, and I’m incredibly proud of that part of my family heritage. I lived in Israel for two and a half years in my childhood. That culture, language, and people are very close to me. I’ve always felt like an Orthodox Christian Serb. However, I also cherish the closeness to Israel and Judaism which I feel and which is a big part of me. Also, I can say that the years I spent in Israel were formative, because I witnessed myself a nation that lives in an incredibly challenging part of the world, in very complex geopolitical circumstances, and yet, owing to the social cohesion, good organization, and a strong faith in its ideals, it manages to build its state and be one of the leaders in the world. In science, in technology, in economy, and many other areas. This gives me inspiration for my work here.”
Can your Jewish origins pave the way for you in the US?
“I have exceptional relationships with the leaders of Jewish organizations. I was a host to the President of AIPAC at my home, with my associates. AIPAC is one of the two biggest and most important Jewish organizations in the US. The representatives of the American Jewish Congress, the second biggest Jewish organization in the US, are regular guests at the events we organize at the Embassy in Washington. We also have strong contacts with other organizations and leaders of other religious communities, but Jews in the US have a significant influence, and our good relationship with them contributes to the overall image of Serbia. It is much appreciated that Serbia and Serbs were the first country and the first nation to recognize the Balfour Declaration of the right to the existence of the state of Israel in 1917. Moreover, Serbs have the greatest number of the Righteous Among the Nations awards per capita in Europe. That testifies to the strong moral credibility of our nation. Other nations didn’t have such a just treatment of Jews – they actually engaged in pogroms and the Holocaust. Serbia is the exact opposite. We suffered together and fought against Fascism and Nazism together, and that ties us together for ever both in heaven and on the earth.”
Recorded by Silvija Slamnig
